BHHHA drama over a couple of requests

Here's the BHHA(Black Hills Homeschool Associaltion) drama. It's an internet group for posting events and notices and for support, ideas, and such. The group is supposed to be all inclusive and non religous.The (>) indicates me talking to you.

>this was posted to the group

From: KaySubject: [BHHA] A neat way to pray for our kidsFrom Psalm 12:7--You will guard us from this generation forever:
Lord, may my child rise above his age as the mountaintops above the clouds. Fulfill in the faithful saying of this verse! Guard him fromthis generation, from being polluted by its evil influence. Thank you forthose two assuring words that declare, "You will." (Adapted from Psalms VolumeI,Charles Spurgeon)

>karen is on another more personal and liberal internet group i belong to
-i've gotten to know her thru that group and she lives in the area but I have yet to meet her-this is her response to the posting of the prayer above

Greetings BHHA group! I've been thinking about this post all day, originally thought I'djust delete and move on with my life, letting it go, but something in mefeels the need to speak up. So.......... ..... here goes! This is *not* meantto be offensive in any way, to anybody, so please take this from the placethat it comes from, which is my heart, and with the best intentions. The reason I am on the BHHA list is for that connection to other homeschoolers, in all the spice and variety that they come. I love the posts about new things going on, supporting each other, and feedbackwhen someone has questions. However, I have to say I really don't want this group to be the place where people feel free to post things NOT RELATED to homeschooling.Since BHHA is *inclusive*, I would really be sad if others felt unaccepted orlike they didn't 'belong' here, simply because their spirituality isdifferent. I would like to keep BHHA a place where all ideas, religions, lifestylesare welcomed with open arms. But, I think to really do that, sometimesthings have to be left unsaid. I would post these same words if someone fromthe opposite spectrum posted something similar to this prayer.Can we just keep the list to *on topic* kinds of discussions, andforegothings like how to pray for our children? How you might pray for yoursmay not be how someone else would choose to pray for their own. With much respect, Karen

>the following is someone writing to Kay the prayer poster in support of her

Kay, Please do not let "one voice" choose for a multitude, and continue tosend all emails through to BHHA. I know that this group was birthed in thoughtand origin by Jan Stewart and Rhonda Conner. Jan's Christian beliefs werewhat led her to start a group that could practice tolerance for all ideas,religions, thoughts, etc. Her heart in the matter was to be open to all peoplewithout judgement, to give them a place to be themselves to learn, grow, and sharetheir experiences in homeschooling. Where others may not see prayer as ahomeschool topic, some of us choose to place it at the top of all our homeschooling decisions. Please walk in confidence knowing that your continued emails tothe BHHA group will be welcomed and tolerated by many, and those who "choose"can not read, or delete any that come their way. In His Truth, Christina

>this is my response the posting of the prayer and in support of what karen had to say

Karen is absolutely right about wishing to keep off-the-topic-of-homeschool-religous posts off this list. There is a christian group for posts like that. I would never dream of posting my wiccan prayers, buddhist meditations, or GLBT pride chants. However I would post any family friendly notices to any wiccan, buddhist, or GLBT events and put in the subject line off topic and the first sentence would be the type of event it is so there were no confusion. I suggest everyone do the same. I have done that in the past when I introduced my Roots and Shoots group. It only takes a few extra seconds to specify that your group is all inclusive, religous(and what type), liberal, conservative, environmentally friendly, strictly acedemic, unschooling, etc.

I tolerate everyone and accept most. However I don't want my child attending strictly christian events. It does get confusing when so many christian events are posted without a "disclaimer" that says they are christian. I've been about ready to attend several events until I read a little further and sometimes between the lines. Karen wasn't saying to stop posting notices of those events. Though it would be nice if little "wisdoms" with an obvious religous tone not be posted-ANY spiritual belief not just chritian. There are plenty of religous specific groups that are happy to recieve those kinds of things.
And if certain notices are specific to certain styles of parenting than take it for what it is. I was met with defensiveness and hostility when I posted something aout a homeschool blog that was endorsed by the Pearls and how they hit kids with pipes. I dont' think this is a proper way to parent but some of you are okay with that. That message was meant for the ones not okay with it. However that wasn't one of those little wisdoms-it was a notice-there is is difference because it relates directly to homeschooling.
Many of us have no problem with notices to and from christians. Karen was very polite when she asked that prayers and such things not be posted. I see no harm offense in keeping THIS group religion free(except of course for notices of events). But please do state right away which group you are addressing so there is no confusion.
Amy

>this is Kay's response to me

Amy, My apologies to you as well. Kay

>and my response to Kay

Well thanks Kay, but I don't really understand the need for an apology. Icertainly don't require one. I wasn't offended by anything and after readingKaren's message again I don't really see where she's needing one either. Ithink our two voices (which may be the only ones posting but certainlyaren't the only two thinking) simply made a request. A request to not postcertain things so as to not alienate those of us members, and those who lookinto joining, who are non-christian. And I also made my request that peopleclarify which group they intend to address when making notices of events andsuch. But that wouldn't really require an apology either. But thanks anyway.amy

>and Kay responds back

Amy, What I heard in your response to me was that offense was taken.Therefore, I apologized for offending you. I am not apologizing for themessage. What I sent out was not intentionally to offend anyone. I thoughtit was a good way to pray for our kids. You do not have to agree. Becauseof this, I will be careful in the future with what I send out to the BHHAgroup. I do hope this will now be put to rest. Kay

>I get so tired of people misreading so I respond some more

No I'm sorry its not quite the end. I don't get offended very easily. And if I do. I say, "I am offended." I write what I mean. I rarely write with a mean, snotty, or attacking tone.(the occasional sarcasm and humor yes, but usually only to those who know me personally) I realize you don't know me but please don't presume I'm writing anything more than what the words clearly state. And my response wasn't to you personally. It was to all of BHHA requesting the aforementioned. (see my original message)
I don't want to continue a dialogue that has nothing to do with notices of homeschooling events-I have my other groups for support and friendly debate. I've noticed from the beginning that this group seems to be more for notices of events. I like being notified by BHHA of opportunities and I guess I was just trying to make sure that everyone could continue to feel welcome.
So, yes I guess this is the end.amy

>This was written to and sent to karen and me at our personal email addresses-the rest of BHHA didn't see this

Hello..I am writing this letter with the same intentions as ibelieve you two ladies had in your recent emails tothe bhha group.. to stand up for what you believein.... with one exception, i will honor those who i knowwould choose not to read what i am about to say andsend this only to those who deserve to read it....i am sorry that you two are terrified to believe inGod, and how on earth you can deny such is beyond anyimagination.. our country is founded with trust inGod, the money in your pocket was made to show such...You choose to deny everything God has given you, yetyou are not capable of CHOOSING to delete an email youdisagree with and ALLOW others their right to freedomof religion... so i have a promise for you from this day forth!I will no longer post a message or respond to amessage posted to this group that mentions any type offaith, religion, Christianity or anything under thoselines IF AND ONLY WHENYOU Honor MY freedom of religionHonor MY freedom of speechHonor MYfreedom of pressand Honor MY GOD GIVEN right to bless those i know, tolove those who hate me and HIM and to share and spreadthe Gospel with all who are within ear shot, eyeshotand physical reach of me... GOD did this for me and iwill do it for everyone i come in contact with in anyway... so if that gets in your way then i'd suggestyou close your eyes and close your ears, becausenothing you say or do will ever stop those who knowGod from sharing HIS WAY with others... nothing... thank you for being a part of this group... becauseone of two things will happen... you will either runfrom US in fear of GOD, or you will turn to GOD...either way, satan loses and God wins... Praise you Heavenly Father for all that you are!!!

>and so I resond to her personally

You don't know me or my fears. I made clear my intentions in my messages-which was( and i reapeat) non alienation of those who don't share a belief in christianity and a request to specify which groups notices are intended for (ie, unschoolers, christians, buddhists, etc). My requests had nothing to do with my belief in God which is very real and very powerful and very personal. Never once did I ask or expect anyone to stop believing as they do. I suggest you read our messages again without defensivness.
I don't usually participate in this kind of dialogue. I prefer to spend my time with my family and friends. I will no longer engage in defending my words because I took great care in writing them as considerately and precisely as I did in the first place-with, as I said before, no anger, hurt, offense, hate, or any negativity. However I do not stand idley by while someone attacks my character.
You have been blocked should you wish to pull me away again from what's important to me.amy

>this is written by Jen one of the moderators of the group

WOW! What a bunch of posts both on and off the list! Please let me chime in and then we can put this to rest (I hope!). Kay has appologized for sending the prayer. Was it a big deal to me? No, it wasn't. That's part of who Kay is and one of the reasons I love her so! ;) Karen was right that this is an inclusive group and as such we try to include everyone regardless of beliefs. Does that mean that no one should post a prayer? I don't think so. But at the same time, when and if someone wants to post something about a Halloween event or a Buddist something (sorry, I know NOTHING about that one!), we Christians aren't allowed to be offended by that. Do I think that will happen? You bet. It did. I'm not exagerating when I say that it was this type of thing (in reverse, honestly) that almost tore BHHA apart a few years ago. Someone did post a non-Christian event and people left the group in a huff with many hurt feelings to follow. Will we all be offended someday at something? Sure. That's a given because we're all human and all have values, which may be different than someone else's. Do we all have to agree? Nope. It would be a boring world if we were all the same. Yes, Jan and Rhonda did a lot to start BHHA. They both asked for a group where we could be tolerant of different beliefs and styles of home education. Do I want to see the prayers *not* sent? Not necessarily, because many families do use a prayer time in their educational walk. Is there an easy answer to any of this? No. BHHA was created as an inclusive group of home educators who were more concerned about the quality of education their children received than the religious beliefs of that family. It was -- and still is -- a place for people with the common goal of home education to meet and gain ideas. So I leave it to you, I suppose. You can hit the delete button when something isn't "your thing." You can decide that BHHA isn't for you. You can go ahead and send those items that might hit the "edges" of school, but clearly mark them "OT" or "Off Topic." Or we can say that only "educational" things are allowed —— whatever that may mean! ;) One thing I do ask from each of you, though, is to remain aware of the originial purpose of BHHA — an inclusive group of home educators. A final thing to remember: none of us knows what is in another's heart. I realize, as I read back on what I've written, that there is no solution here and that I've probably managed to make everyone upset. If so, I appologize. That wasn't my intent. But I don't want to see BHHA torn apart again over this. Thanks for listening. Jen

>and this is in response to Jen's response by another member of the group

Much is expected from those who have been given much. We've been given the gift of an inclusive group within which we can express ourselves, allow others to express themselves, and continually practice the art of allowing (without allowing anything to over ride our families). We can practice listening and speaking with love. We can learn from other families without judging their choices. We can all become examples to our children better by practicing amongst ourselves one of the central themes in all religions... love one another.I believe it is possible in this group to do that. I've witnessed it within this group. I feel Jan and Rhonda would be pleased by much of the growth, and I'm grateful to them for starting the group with Jen. Jen has been the constant, generous, single-handed strength behind BHHA since Jan's tragic death and Rhonda's move to Texas 5 (?) years ago. The 8 years that I've been involved with BHHA, I've dappled enough in the little BHHA 'jobs' to realize that whoever is willing to keep it going is giving us all a great and generous gift. Thank you, Jen. Jen was very gentle in her interjection of "Jen's response." She is the moderator and sole strength behind this support group, and not necessarily by choice. She has often invited anyone to step into any roles that would assist the entire group to provide more support for homeschooling families. She is very gentle in her requests for that as well. Perhaps we should all step forward and begin meeting again, discussing in person and reaching out to one another. It's always easier to see the presence of Grace in someone's eyes. The emails are convenient for posting of events and occasional exchanges of ideas when the kids are tucked into bed and it's not necessary to leave the house, but my experiences at the meetings were always warm and welcoming and accepting and helpful and fueling and thought provoking and encouraging and loving. Maybe we should step forward and meet at the heart.

>This is my response and agreement to the post directly above

I agree, Jen's respons seemed very nice. Of course you, knowing her personally were probably able to see that in her writing. Since no one here knows me outside of email I too tried to to be as diplomatic as possible even stating that I didn't and don't usually write with an angry, offended, or attacking tone. But I know from responses I recieved on the BHHA list and to my personal email that some did find offense in what Karen and I tried to express. So yes, your idea of meeting in person is great. It'd be a great way for people to get to know each other and better understand that not everything written by group is an attack on another group.
Because of my distance from Rapid I'm not able to attend many events because I already go to Rapid twice a week for other commitments. Like I said I've wanted to attend other events til I found out they were strictly christian. I already have a great support of moms and their families-homeschoolers, unschoolers, public schoolers who raise their kids with respect and love, christian families, UU families, non-relgous families-but I'd like a chance to meet and befriend more. So if an all inclusive meeting/event/whatever is planned I hope to attend.
amy houchin

>the person who wrote karen and me personally also responded to the meeting in person and jens response

Amen to that! Hence the reason i never respondedthrough the group.... that only feeds the sheer needfor chaos and drama....and the point of these groups,to me, is love, support and respect for each otherincluding each others individuality. .... Please let us go forth with those who are willing tohonor that and continue on!sammie

>and finally karen and I are getting some actual support starting with the following and I've also recieved some at my personal email

I've not really been much a part of this group, but wanted to respond here. I think my insight can help some individuals see this in a different light. I apologize to those of you who would just like to see this "dropped."Over a year ago I attended one of the group's meetings to learn more about homeschooling, as my daughter was just a toddler and I was considering homeschooling. After the meeting some members were discussing some of their reasons for homeschooling. For them the reason was because they didn't want their children influenced (in a non-Christian way) by other students or by the teaching of Evolution in school. That really struck me and made me wonder if the group was in fact a group of Christians who were homeschooling, rather than a diverse group of homeschoolers each with their own reasons for teaching their own children. Some more subtle things also contributed to that mistaken belief of mine (like in language, some of the women referred to the get-togethers as a chance for "fellowship" which to me is a word I've only heard of Christian gatherings - though of course the meaning is broader than that--it's more just my own connotation of the word than its actual meaning). So, while some may feel that this current discussion is a big negative for the group, I find it to be a very positive occurrence. It made me realize (for the first time) that not everyone in the group is Christian, and that everyone is homeschooling for their own reasons.So, I see Amy's point when she says there isn't a need for an apology. There is nothing offensive about what was originally posted by Kay. It can just give a false impression by a new member/reader that the group is not what it in reality is. I had that impression for over a year, until some others shared their point of view about this particular post. Others might have left the group, feeling that it didn't "fit" them. I chose to stay, even though I wasn't sure the group was an exact "fit" because I wanted to save some of the resources for future reference (when my daughters are older and I may be ready to start homeschooling) .I don't have any problem with postings of events by groups of various faiths/beliefs (as others have stated) as long as they are specifically noted as such. I don't even really have a problem with postings of prayers of various faiths/groups. I just think it's possible to drive away new members who might have a mistaken impression of just what purpose the group is here to serve. That, not the "offensive" nature of any prayer, I believe is what Amy and Karen meant by their requests. (my interpretation of them - I apologize to both of you if my interpretation is wrong.)Just another point of view. I hope it helps everyone to see this discussion as I do - a positive and non-confrontational one that helps some of us to see how diverse this group really is. I really had no idea. Thanks Karen and Amy for helping me to see that there is more to this group than initially meets the eye (or met mine, anyway). Peace & light to all--Nikkole

>my response to Nikkole the above writer-and a jab at the person who attacked me further above at my personal address-this was written to the entire list as was the above

Yes, Nikkole you did interpret my message correctly(I can't speak completely for Karen). Thankyou for illustrating my point.
And thankyou to all of you who posted either on the list or to my personal email with encouragement, respect, or in a general positive manner. Shame on those of you who attacked thru my email and warned me of my fate with Satan-especially while claiming love on the list.I'm glad that there are those of you who understood I never attacked christianity in itself or those who live that lifestyle.
And I'm glad it did open some dialogue. Hopefully it helped those who follow other paths and those who respect all paths to see there is diversity and support in BHHA. I think so called drama can be a wonderful experience when "played" with tact, respect, and the intention of really understanding and accepting one another despite differences.
I feel encouraged that should I ever want to post a notice to an event it will be welcomed and attended by some. I have not posted a few events for fear it would be attended by protestors but I can see that some of you may have missed out on wonderful opportunites.
amy